Questions from November - Part II
Subject: Questions
Dear Mr. Mclaren,
I am a student at Seattle Pacific University where you recently spoke. I don't know why this is important to me but I would ask that you address some of the following issues. I feel like of much of your responses are vague and jump around a solid answer. I know as a story teller and illustrative, analogous, "mystical poet" that is just your way. I also know that as a post modern it isn't your way to drill down on doctrine and be analytical, but for my own humble understanding I ask that you would...please.
What exactly is your belief about hell? I guess a way to think about it would be what happens to people like Hitler and Nero? Or, just the most wicked people? I would also ask, what happens to people that have not "converted" or put their faith in following Jesus Christ?
I have seen different things you say about the Bible and you assert that it is very important to you. It's hard to even phrase this question because I want the most direct answer possible. Should Christians abide by everything that the Bible in New Testament terms says? Not just principles or things that most would espouse such as love, and the social parts (not to downgrade them in anyway) but teachings on sexual issues, church issues, etc. Is the Bible a literal revelation from God? Infallible? Are there things that are inaccurate or untrue or misguided?
Your view on the cross and the resurrection are another point of interest. Do you believe in the traditional sense that Jesus died for our sins? What things do you think Jesus did on the cross (substitutionary atonement? Christus Victor? etc.?). Do you believe in a literal physical resurrection? Do you believe in the miracles of Jesus as actually historically taking place?
Do you believe in the Devil as a real living entity?
Do you hold to the ideas in Boyd's God of the Possible (i.e. open theism)?
Lastly if I may, what is your favorite movie? Book?
I know my questions are probably not worded the best nor as direct as I wish them to be but I ask that you would be gracious with me and answer them as directly and unmistakably as possible. I am just a college student trying to better understand what you are teaching and not teaching. I would greatly appreciate a response that I know you don't have to give. Thank you for your time.
A: Thanks for your questions. As it happens, I’ve tried to give clear answers to some of these questions in several of my books. If I could have answered the questions well in a sentence, of course, I wouldn’t have had to write the books! As well, there are levels of complexity hidden within your questions that you’re probably not aware of, and if I were to answer them in a sentence, I would be reinforcing some of your assumptions that I think are problematic. So, I’m not trying to be evasive – I’m trying to be a good teacher and helpful human being to a fellow human being. As an analogy, suppose someone comes up to a doctor and asks, “What should a person do if he constantly has a low-grade fever? Is it OK to take sleeping pills? Are you for or against AIDs testing? Should someone be worried about a lump in his neck? I don’t want your typical scientific mumbo-jumbo. I don’t want you to answer my question with a question. I just want a straight answer.” A good doctor will want to know why the person is asking the question, and he’ll be aware of complexities the asker isn’t. That’s how I feel when presented with your questions.
On hell, I wrote a book called “The Last Word and the Word After That.”
On the Bible, I would recommend “Why I am Biblical” in “A Generous Orthodoxy.”
On the cross, resurrection, and atonement, on the devil, and on my understanding of God’s relationship to the universe (which is behind “open theism”) I would recommend “The Story We Find Ourselves In,” and “The Secret Message of Jesus.”
And on my favorite book or movie, it depends. I love stupid movies – Weird Al Yankovic’s “UHF” is probably my all-time favorite. And I read so many books … it would depend if we’re talking fiction, nonfiction, etc., and what day you ask me!
You asked me to be gracious with you and give the clearest answers I can, which I have done (within these space limitations). Can I ask you to be equally gracious to me in understanding why I can’t reply with a simple yes or no? For what it’s worth, I think Jesus faced these same kinds of dilemmas. People would come to him with questions and he would not be able to answer because the questions were not framed correctly – a subject I address in “A New Kind of Christian.”
The bad news is that I haven’t been able to answer your questions as briefly and directly as you would like. The good news is I am writing books that deal in some depth with the questions you’re asking!
Subject: ordained women vs. women ministries
A leader of my denomination asserted that in general wherever you find large thriving women ministiries in a church, you also find that they have not allowed for women pastoral leadership. As women in ordained roles increases, is the assumption, the women's groups doing various ministries diminishes. Do you believe this to be true?
A: I don’t know, but if that’s supposed to be a reason not to allow women to be pastors, I think it’s somewhat ironic. In an attempt to “be biblical” by not allowing women, people celebrate “women’s ministries” – which aren’t in the Bible! (i.e. there’s no “women’s ministry” section of ancient Israel or the early church.) As well, when women and men work in partnership, nobody notices whether it’s “women’s ministry” – it’s just ministry. As you probably know, I am fully supportive of women and men in full partnership in life and ministry. I differ with those who interpret the Bible in a way that prohibits this, but I understand their reasons for doing so. Tony Campolo and I address this briefly in our book “Adventures in Missing the Point.” But I’m just expressing my opinion – I don’t want to create problems for your and your denominational leader in any way. Please don’t say, as some people unfortunately have, “Brian McLaren says…” Having been a pastor for 24 years, I want to make leaders’ jobs easier, not harder!
Subject: what do you think of "Jesus seminar" stuff
Brian,
I found you via my wife. She has been intrigued by your website and bugging me to read it.
Last night I sat down and read much of your website.
I am a pastor at the X.
Your approach to Christianity is very appealing to me.
What I was wondering about is if you have ever read any books by the "Jesus Seminar" folk....JOhn Crossan, Marcus Borg, Stephen Patterson? Any Jack Shelby Spong? I would be interested in what you thought of them.
My hunch is that you think they are still working out of a "Modern" world view.
There is a new DVD study out by some of their contemporaries, meant to stir a new kind of Christianity.
It is called "Living the Questions". On it many of these folk are talking. I would be interested in your response to that study.
I want to thank you for your work.....it seems to me accessible and approachable.
P.S. Have you ever thought of putting out a study guide for your first book?
Or a DVD type of format similar to "Living the Questions"
By the way, you can find an introduction to Living the questions on the web at www.livingthequestions.com.
Looking forward to hearing from you!
A: Thanks for your inquiry. I’ve heard of “living the questions” but haven’t seen it yet. I’ve read some of the work of the people you mentioned, and found much of it helpful. Even where I disagreed, I still was stimulated to think, and I’m always grateful for that. I feel much the same about the Jesus Seminar in general. Yes, I think some of it is based on overly modernist assumptions – but there is a big difference, I think, between Marcus Borg and say John Spong in this regard. The important thing that the Jesus Seminar is doing, I think, is helping people to ask, “What did Jesus’ message sound like in the ears of its original hearers?” I try to address that question in my upcoming book, “The Secret Message of Jesus.”
Subject: Brian
Hi Brian,
Just saw you speak at the GO conference in Seattle. Thanks for being there - it was a great conference! I am thinking about Christian financial stewardship and was wondering if I could ask you how you deal with the issue. If you don't mind answering (and you probably do) - how much money do you make and how do you determine how to spend it? How do you determine how much to spend on yourself and your family, vs. giving vs. saving? Surely we need to do all three, and I'm wondering how that should look for a rich American (such as me and you).
A: It would feel a little strange to post my earnings here. I’m sure you can understand that. But my wife and I have always given away at least 10% of our gross income (since the days when I made $450 per month), and often more. I like the 10-80-10 plan for starters: give the first 10%, live on up to 80%, and save 10%. As people prosper, I think they can start increasing their giving far above 10%. Jesus was right (surprise!): it really is more blessed to give than to receive!
Subject: A note from X
Dear Brian,
Hello, my name is X. You and I have met a few times over the past ten years at Cedar Ridge. I'm a friend of X, and I helped fill in a few times on the worship team a few years back. I also played in the band Mars Hill. Anyway, just trying to give you some context to remember me by, though we haven't had much interaction.
Over those years, I've had a growing calling to the worship ministry, and I'm now the part time worship director for X Community Church which meets in X, MD. We're a church plant from X. I've finally realized that I desire to be in full time worship ministry, and I've been searching since April for a new job. Most of the available jobs are for positions at churches that, shall we say, don't intend to engage today's post-modern, post-liberal, post-conservative mindset. I've also not found a way to get in touch with churches that might be looking for worship pastors intent on emergent ministry. My resume is posted on churchstaffing.com, but even there, nearly no emergent churches are represented. Surely there are emergent churches looking for a fulltime worship pastor?! Or maybe not, maybe I'm just dreaming. Do you know of any resources to help me find those churches that might be looking? My thanks for any time you spend responding.
Sincerely
A: Great question. Maybe we can get something like this going through emergentvillage.com. Or maybe someone reading this who has web skills would like to contact emergent and volunteer? You’re right – it’s needed.
Subject: Praise Gathering thoughts
Dear Brian,
I expect no reply to this note, but wanted to pass along just a line or two about your presentation at Praise Gathering this past weekend in Indy. I was riveted by your presentation and will be reading your books beginning now!
My comment is strictly one of a humorous note. The email dialogue between you and April in your presentation was so well done! I appreciated her inquiring mind very much, as well as your efforts in reaching her where she was at the time of your first encounter.
I noticed the tongue-in-cheek humor regarding the fact that April was a harpist. You see, I just began harp lessons this past spring (at the tender age of 57), and so I found your comment right on track with my friends and family. I was attending PG with my best friend (a non-musician) and my eldest daughter (who believes her own Mother has taken leave of her senses in her old age) and so they both chuckled right along with the audience when you revealed April's occupation. We harpists know we are an "odd lot" and so we have a certain expectation of raised eyebrows and yawns when we tell others of our passion. I pray your friend April is now playing her harp for God.
May God richly bless you on your way! I will be reading your books and hope to hear you speak in person once again some day.
A: Thanks for your note. I loved my time at the Praise Gathering. Seldom have I been so warmly welcomed and well-treated. The Gaither family have created a beautiful environment for fellowship and renewal, and it was a privilege to be part of it. You’ll be glad to know that April has continued to grow in her faith and is now in seminary. In fact, she’s on staff at a church we helped “re-start,” called The Church in Bethesda. If you google on it, you’ll find it easily – the senior pastor is Robert Kang, who worked on our staff at Cedar Ridge. April is a gifted leader – expect to see great things coming from her and her husband Nuc. Fantastic people!
Subject: Hi! Enjoying your book, and more....
Hi!
I picked up The Last Word and the Word After That in the library and am enjoying reading it, only to pg 34 so far. It's really refreshing to read your book. Just so you know, I'm an Episcopalian by upbringing, and have a very deep faith, although I attend a wonderful little church sporatically. And I'm an engineer, but hopefully not too staid and stodgy. I've attended Baptist and Presbyterian churches, as well as interdenominational worship services, but my "home" is in the Episcopal church.
My son's a freshman in college, and he's gradually, I hope, coming to terms with God. He says I'm close-minded, because I don't ardently question everything anymore. I tell him God's bigger than my questions, and I'm hoping I'll understand when I die. I haven't quit questioning; there's simply too much evidence for God, so I've suspended my doubts. The way I see it, which has no theological base -- and excuse me if I'm too irreverent, is that all of the major religious groups have some pieces of the puzzle right, but we're all like squabbling kids, and none of us have it all down exactly right - Christian and non-Christian.
I thought I'd share with you something I wrote 6 years ago after going through cancer, and I hope it will offer encouragement and perspective. It's the only year I've gotten Christmas cards out, and it was my thank-you note to everyone that had helped me for the previous 8 months. A lot of it was directed at my close-knit family and closest friends, but I was so blessed to have so many people help me, and my son, even complete strangers.
No need to reply unless you want to; I know you and yours are busy.
Godspeed,
A: Thanks. Your puzzle story above reminds me of the Benjamin Franklin story you’ll read in a letter later this month. Thanks be to God for your journey through cancer!
Subject: Re. Jonathan Wilson
Hi Brian,
In one of your books (so I'm told) you interact with Dr. Jonathan Wilson (Living Faithfully in a Fragmented World). Which book it is? Thanks.
A: I mention him briefly in “A Generous Orthodoxy.” I quote him at length in a talk I do called “Beyond Pluralism and Relativism.” Hope that’s helpful… I’m a big fan of that book – and of the work of his son-in-law in the new monasticism movement, which was inspired in part by that book as well.
Subject: Thank you
Hi Brian, just wanted to write and thank you for your books. I'm struggling with a lot of the things I'm reading- I feel a lot like I'm Dan and the book is taking the role of Neo. I've grown up in a strict, fundamentalist church, which I recently left (before reading your books, but long after reading Schaeffer, Lewis, Jerram Barrs, and several other L'Abri writers whose books helped me to see that what i was part of wasn't what Christianity should be).
It's not that I'm doubting the Christian faith at all, I'm now getting involved at a different church, but I'm just struggling w/ several of the beliefs I've always thought were so obviously true according to the Bible that they didn't even need to be discussed. It was something like this: "Of course everyone who doesn't believe what I believe is going to Hell... How could anyone read the Bible and not see that?" But now I just feel like there must be something more. I am Dan. I know all the answers but I've seen too much ugliness in conservative fundamentalism to be convinced that this is religion that is pleasing to God. I've read the work of men like Schaeffer, Lewis, and yourself and they're more open/liberal/
I feel like I'm walking out of that tunnel that's pictured on the cover of A New Kind of Christian. I'm just not sure what I'm walking out into... I'm sure that what lies behind me is stale, ugly, and becoming increasingly irrelevant. But what am I walking into?
Thanks again, please keep writing and keep thinking, all these concerns I've had for months I've found being plainly verbalized in your books, and that's an encouragement that words can't really do justice to.
A: Thanks for your kind words. It’s nice when a book cover helps communicate the message. Thanks to the good people at Jossey-Bass for the great work they’ve done on the trilogy. They’re a great publishing team!
Subject: thanks & lament service
Brian,
Thank you so much for your ministry among us yesterday in Kansas City at Mid-America Nazarene University. I didn’t get the chance to meet you personally, but I wanted to express my deep thanks to you and to God for the gifts that God brought us through you. I am sure that you offended many people, but if so, they needed to be offended. You were disturbingly prophetic, yet in a truly conciliatory and cordial way, and your stories and story-telling help this to happen as much as anything. Again, thank you.
While speaking to us you mentioned a recent Mass of St. Thomas that intentionally includes expressions of doubt. That sounds tremendous, and I will certainly look it up. You also mentioned the dire need for incorporating lament and expressions of pain into our worship. I couldn’t agree more, in large part due to a great seminary professor, Dennis Bratcher, for teaching us about this in the Psalms in a class he did on a Theology of Exile.
I’d like to share with you and anybody else who might like to use it a service of Lament that my wife Tamara and I developed for our pastoral ministry at a Church of the Nazarene in Richmond, Virginia (not too far from your neck of the woods). Please find it attached. We tried to use the Psalms as primers in the service to help people express their own laments. The service was both deeply moving and deeply disturbing to some. One mother of an autistic child prayed, “God, why does my son have autism?” Another parishioner, a World War II veteran, told me after the service about his severe discomfort and his desire not to call to mind painful things, that it is better just to leave them behind. On the whole, the response was positive, but there was a huge barrier of discomfort and vulnerability that only a few people ended up crossing.
The abbreviation STL in the order of service is for the Nazarene hymn book, Sing to the Lord. The difficulty you expressed about finding songs about justice paralleled my experience with finding songs of lament anywhere out there. But one relatively new song fit beautifully, called “How Long, O Lord?”.
Perhaps this digital age is allowing for the kind of sharing and networking in koinonia that so characterized the sharing of liturgy (and Scripture) in early Christianity. It certainly is exciting and rewarding.
I have many questions that I would like to ask you, especially about the path(s) forward in ecumenism(s), but I will save those for some time down the road as the Lord gives the opportunity.
Grace and peace,
A: Thanks. I don’t have the means to post your service here, but I hope that emergentvillage.com can create a space for posting things like this. The Psalms are so honest – we need to be as well! Thanks for your encouragement, and for passing on your beautiful work.
Subject: Great stuff today in KC.
I was chatting with you during the break with another ?young woman about church planting and what's ?best..stay within current organization or start ?another...also talked about all of the dillemmas and ?risks with both. I would love to hear more of your ?perspective and heart on this front. Also, meant to ?tell you today...was in South Africa working with an ?AIDS orphanage this summer and read "The Last ?Word...". Actually went to the Apartheid Museum 2 ?days after read it in the book. Amazing experience. ?My heart is very much there and in social justice ?stuff along with clarifying the heart of God (Gospel) ?in community. The organization that we worked with ?this summer if affliated with X Church in ?Washington...thought that would be a good deal...not ?so much. Had some big time q's about the operation ?there. Wondering if you have worked with any ?organizations there that you would recommend that are ?doing missional things and are apart of this emergent ?conversation. South Africa is one of the most ?tragically beautiful places I've even been. Let me ?know bro. Again, thanks for listening today. A ?couple of guys that have been real formative in my ?journey are Robert Farrar Capon and Malcolm Smith ?(www.malcolmsmith.org).
A: Thanks. I’ll be in South Africa again in a few weeks – tragically beautiful is a good word. I often think that the story of Desmond Tutu and Nelson Mandela is one of the greatest “gospel” stories of recent history – I hope more people pay attention to it! Now, the story continues as people of faith address AIDs. Can I suggest you contact John Benn, a wonderful South African pastor, through amahoro.info? He is doing wonderful work in this area in South Africa. There is a growing network of innovative leaders there coming together in exciting ways.
Subject: Brian: Emergent Church Leadership Questions
Dear Brian McLaren, ?
I am a Th.M. student at Calvin Seminary in Grand Rapids, Mi. I am very ?interested in the Emergent Church movement because for the last decade I too ?have felt that the gulf between "regular" churches and post-modern culture ?is growing rapidly and the church too often is not able or willing to ?address that gulf with the Good News about Jesus. So I think we need a new ?kind of Christian and a new kind of church. Because of my interest in ?church leadership I am considering writing my thesis about leadership in the ?Emergent Church. I would like to study such things as roles, age, gender, ?education, ordination, etc., in combination with items such as the age, ?size, and backgrounds of the churches. I'd also be interested in learning ?about leadership theories in the Emergent churches. Do you know of any ?theses, dissertations, books, or articles that have been written on this or ?related topics? Also, can you please point me to others who might be of ?help to me? ?I will gladly welcome any assistance you can offer. ?Blessings to you in Jesus' service,
A: Thanks for your inquiry. I’d refer you to Ryan Bolger, at Fuller Seminary. His book, “Emerging Churches,” is the best resource I’m aware of to introduce you to some research on this subject. Ryan would no doubt have other contacts. Tony Jones is doing similar PhD research at Princeton – you can reach him via emergentvillage.com. Also, you might want to post at the emergent blogsite or discussion boards (links available through emergentvillage.com). God bless you in your research!
Subject:
Mr. McLaren,
just finished your trilogy. great series. i really enjoyed reading it. it came along at a perfect time for me. a friend of mine and i were going through a lot of stuff that was similar to "dan" in your book. your book confirmed a lot of the thoughts we were having. we are new kind of christians, and in some ways always have been.
thanks for writing this series. it was great to see in print some thoughts i have always privately kept to myself.
A: Thanks. That’s probably the most frequent thing I hear – not “you’re original,” but “you’re saying what I’ve been thinking.” Of course, plenty of people say, “You’re crazy!” too.
Subject: Worldwide Religious Freedom?
Dear Brian,
My friend, a Somali Christian, was shot Monday by Islamic fundamentalists and tonight lies in a coma in a Mogadishu hospital. Tonight I am upset and indignant.
How can we bridge the divide between the people of Islam and Christianity when countries in the West allow freedom of religion while Islamic countries around the world are daily harassing, imprisoning and killing Christian converts?
Islamic governments have no motivation to allow religious freedom. Their religion is almost perfectly insulated from the concept of tolerance to converts. If you convert, you are excommunicated or killed. If you are a woman you are forbidden to marry a non-Muslim. Islam is a religion that feeds off a fear of Hell. If an entire country believes that they are opening up the possibility of damnation by accepting religious freedom, why would they accept it?
Christians in the West seem to be the ones who are continually making gestures to show our openness to Islam, (Bush just added a Koran to the White House library--Can you imagine the Iatollah pubicly announcing putting a Bible in an Iranian library?). Islamic countries are not making any concessions to Christians. (And you can't count free elections in Islamic countries. These are pointless to Christian minorities because democracy means majority rules--Did you hear of any Iraqi Christians getting elected to the new parliament?).
It's time the Church does something to protect our brothers and sisters who are being persecuted in Islamic countries. But what can we do? We can't even get immigrants from those countries who live under our religious freedom to come out and condemn the persecution of Christians in their homeland. I think the UN and Western countries should be demanding worldwide religious freedom...but will that voice ever be very loud as long as we are dependent on their oil?
Peace,
A: All of us who read your words share your grief and outrage about your Somali friend. I feel terrible saying anything beyond that, because that is the most important thing.
I agree – we must call for religious freedom. But we must do so with humility as well as outrage and strength. We Christians in the West didn’t get to a place of religious freedom overnight. We have centuries of anti-Semitism, for example, about which most Christians are unaware. Many of us are also unaware how sectarian many of the founding colonists in America were. Religious freedom for their own sect was what many of them sought – not religious tolerance of others!
As well, we need to realize that Christians from the US can’t talk about these matters without understanding how our foreign policy is interpreted by our neighbors, especially our Muslim neighbors, around the world. We are hardly aware of the 30,000-plus civilians who have died in Iraq – they are. We are hardly aware of how Palestinians suffer a lack of freedom and dignity in Israel – they are. As Solzhenheitzen said (I’m sure that’s misspelled), “The line between good and evil doesn’t run between nations” – and we could, between religions – “but through them.”
With that awareness, we can still speak out against injustice “over there” – and here at home as well. Having said all that, though, I return to wanting to express my sadness about your friend, and my shared outrage at the hatred that caused this violence. May we long for the day when every person will no longer have to live in fear of violence in any of its forms.
For all who want to help fight against religious persecution and for freedom of religion, I’m sure that a quick google search will turn up several good options of organizations to connect with.
Subject: Restoration Movement
In A Generous Orthodoxy, you wrote: ?"One of the most fascinating and vigorous sectors of ?protesting Protestantism has been "restorationism"--a ?belief held by a succession of groups through church ?history that, by finally getting the last or lost ?detail right, they now represent a full-fledgede ?restoration of "New Testament Christianity."
As a young (22 year old) youth and missions pastor, I ?am currently working at a church that holds to ?restorationism. At first, I just thought it was ?another -ism that didn't really matter in the work of ?the Church.However, I feel restrained. I feel like we ?can't think past what we already believe.
Lately, I have been thinking through so much. Perhaps ?my struggle with feeling restrained comes from what ?Doug Pagitt touches upon with how minister's are ?elevated through speaching style preaching in his book ?"Preaching Reimagined".
If the book of Acts is about God's movement in the ?world, is it really important for us to return to the ?methodology hinted at there? Is this the type of ?remembering that we need to do for postmodernity? Or ?is it just a return to what worked then but couldn't ?work now? Can we really believe that we have it right?
I love this congregation, but I feel a little snared. ?I do hope they never ask me to support such a view. ?Any way to give me air as the unexperienced youth ?pastor?
A: You’ve hit the downside of restorationism. Once you’ve claimed to “have it right,” you’re stuck, aren’t you? Once you claim to have captured “the New Testament model,” any change from the status quo becomes a form of compromise and disobedience to Scripture – unless you want to launch an even more extreme restorationism! The solution, I think, is for restorationists to celebrate the courage of their founders to change in obedience to God, while admitting that their founders shared in a common Protestant disregard for context. In other words, they thought they were the last ones in history who would ever have to change. In this way, you want to follow their example more than the details of their teaching … an important distinction.
You can express this in theological terms – the continuing incarnation of Jesus. Looking back, we realize (unless perhaps we’re Amish, but then we wouldn’t be reading this posting) that Jesus was able to incarnate and work in a world of electricity, for example – even though he had never done that in the first century. Sadly, many restorationists have clicked into a prideful mode, where not only do they think they’re right, but they think they’re better. I don’t think there’s a shortcut around this: it must be faced, named, and repented of.
As a young and gifted leader, you have a tough decision: do you work within the system and be a fresh voice within it, or do you leave for a situation with more freedom? I tried the former and ended up doing the latter. But I think each person needs to seek guidance from God in this decision – what’s right for one person in this regard may not be right for another. My prayers – and I hope the prayers of those who read this – are with you.
Subject: The story we find ourselves in
Dear Brian, This is my first e-mail to you and I want to comment on the 2nd book of your trilogy. I found myself in tears because it spoke to some longing in me and in my life as a parish pastor I'm still trying to identify. It was the story itself but of course, it was more than that. The book has inspired a new kind of thinking for me. I also read "Generous Orthodoxy" and I'm currently reading "Beyond Foundationalism" by John Franke. At some point I would like to attend an emergent event. I look forward to your book about Jesus, coming out in March or April. Blessings and Joy,
A: Thanks. I’m so happy when people find “The Story” meaningful and moving. You’ll see some similar responses in this month’s replies, and I feel especially good when people “get” what I’m trying to do in this book. I hope you’ll enjoy “Secret Message” even more!
Subject: A Generous Orthodoxy
Dear Brian, ? I just finished wolfing down "A Generous Orthodoxy" and still have ?crumbs on my face! I probably didn't chew enough or swallow properly, ?because it was such a tasty spiritual meal. I/we have such a long way ?to go, but you have provided an excellent vehicle for going in the ?right direction. I must say your introduction gives new meaning to the ?word 'apologetics'! Thanks again for such a thoughtful and timely ?word.
A: Glad you enjoyed it. Some people got a good laugh out of chapter 0 (as I hoped they would) but some didn’t seem to get the joke. Oh well!
Subject:
Brian
In 'orthodoxy' you advocate a return to the mystical sie of Christianity, or ?at least reclaiming it.i for one am an avid fan of this. but i wonder if you ?see how some evangelicals nad even mainliners would have a problem with ?this. for instance the emphasis on Unity with Christ (ekhardt) meditation ?(cloud of unknowing, jaohn main, john casian) and the almost panentheistic ?view of God (that inone of your book s at least i know you disagree with) ?have buddist overtones. in fact alot of the worlds mystical traditions are ?very smillar. Im just wondring how you think this will affect christanity ?and the emerging movement.
A: This is a good question. I believe the central message of Jesus – which is, in many ways, the central message of the Bible, is the good news that the kingdom of God is available to all through Christ. Neither Buddha nor Mohammed nor Zoroaster offers this good news to the world. That is not to say that they have nothing of value to offer; I believe each of them said important and valuable things from which we all could learn much. In fact, I think when we receive Jesus’ central message, we can appreciate these other leaders for what they offered. So, I think there are two ways to go wrong here. On the one hand, we can think that all religious leaders are saying the same thing, and so all religions are the same. That’s not true. Or, we can say that since we believe Jesus is uniquely the world’s Savior, all the others are evil and wrong in everything they said and did. That’s not true either. I think we can say, “Jesus is the savior,” and “we can honor truth wherever it is found.”
Subject: woody here. This is not spam!
I was wondering what is this new christian and what is this emergent church?
Jesus died openly on the cross and He openly conforted those against Him.
He openly healed and He openly preached against "Sin". He openly did all that
the Father required Him to do. He prayed in private. He openly quoted the word to
satan. obviously He did not have a secret message. He openly proclaimed the
acceptable year of the Lord. He openly proclaimed He is the one to whom we all
needed to follow in spirit and in truth....HOLINESS as He is only was His command.
Your Jesus creed..... We have confidence in Jesus,
So we follow him, learn his ways,
Seek to obey his teaching and live by his example.
We walk with him, walk in him, abide in him,
As a branch in a vine. .......................BE YE HOLY AS I AM HOLY..[NO SIN]
HE CAME TO GET US OUT OF SIN NOT COVER US IN IT. HIS BLOOD ISN'T
A BLANKET FOR THE WORLD TO CONTINUE TO SIN AFTER VERBALLY
ADMITTING HIM AS SAVIOUR OF MY LIFE. WE ARE TO LEARN BY HIS WORD
NOT TO SIN ANYMORE."WE KNOW TO DO GOOD AND DO NOT DO IT" ...IS..
SIN. THE TRUE SPIRITUAL JEW [Jew and Gentile,whsoever will come, which is the elect]
is HOLY UPRIGHT AND RIGHTEOUS UNLESS HE TURNS TO COMMITTING ONE
SIN FOR EVE ONLY TOOK ONE THOUGHT>ONE APPLE>ONE BITE...boom...dead
spiritually then phyiscal death set in. We are not sinners saved IN GRACE...but sinners saved
BY GRACE...REMITTED...CLEAN CONSCIENCE...HOLY AT THAT MOMENT. AND
AS WE WALK AND LEARN OF THE TRUTH OF GODS WORD TO LIVE IT, WHICH IS HOLINESS, WE LEARN NOT TO SIN. WE FIRST SINNED WHEN WE FIRST
SAID YES TO OUR FIRST SIN...THEN WE BECOME THE DEVILS ADVOCATE UN-
TIL WE FIND CHRIST THRU GODLY REPENTANCE (a willful change of direction from our heart.) we work hard at being a sinner. See there is no secret message! Thats how all the
other religions get started....secret this secret that and "oh how we love you!" type of thing but
all the time hating to even get near the "TRUTH" REALITY OF OUR SINNING AGAINST
GOD HAVING OUR CONSCIENCE SEARED WITH A HOT IRON. ONE SPITS IN THE FACE OF CHRIST WHEN ONE HATES THE TRUTH OF GOD AND NOT BY
NOT RECEIVING CHRIST...HE IS GUILTY OF THE BLOOD AND BODY OF CHRIST. Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, [Gods word-doctrine of Christ] If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book{Gods word-doctrine of Christ] of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.[this is the degree of KING
JESUS IN THE SPIRITUAL[moral] KINGDOM OF GOD NOW IN EXSISTENCE.]
www.whoisonthelordsside.blogspot.com
A: It’s interesting to me to see how some people ask a question, and then launch into a reply or attack, full of all kinds of assumptions that might have been answered if they waited for the answer to the question. I hope the writer of this posting will take time to read my upcoming book (which he seems quite upset about, without even knowing what it says).
Subject: Are you a Postmodern, and how do you feel about the Word of God?
Brian,
In my interest in finding how postmodernists feel about about the Word of God, I want to know where you stand on the Word of God? Is the Word of God still the inerrant, and without error? Is the Word of God that we need to keep changing the words around in the Bible to make the Bible apply to us? Where do we fit into the Word of God?
I was listening to the radio to a guy named Ravi Zacharias the other day, and he was saying that a pastor was saying that he no longer believed in the Word of God. Would you described this pastor as a postmodern Christian? If this is the case, what is the definition of a true Christian in a postmodern world according to your beliefs? As a believer and Christian, I believe that the Word of God is soley the Word of God, and is without error. God used His messengers to write the Word, but over the years something has changed. What are your thoughts on this?
A: First, thanks for the tone of your question. I often receive questions like this that are written with an accusatory or even mocking tone. First, I would want to say that “postmodernists” is a broad term that applies to so many different kinds of people that I certainly don’t want to speak for them. I’m not interested in being a “postmodern Christian.” I want to follow Jesus faithfully in whatever context I find myself – as you say, as “a true Christian in a postmodern world.” I try to answer your question in “A Generous Orthodoxy,” in a chapter called “Why I am Biblical.” I would also suggest your read Bishop N. T. Wright’s wonderful article on the Bible, which you can find on his website (google his name and it will come up). The only other thing I would add would be that I think the situation is considerably more complex than most people realize. In fact, the following question and reply adds some insight in this regard.
Subject: Benjamin Franklin with Michael Welfare
I ran across the following account in the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin concerning the attitude of the Dunkers in defending themselves against their critics. I thought of the Emergent church when I read it and thought I would pass it on. Franklin says,
'I was acquainted with one of its founders, Michael Welfare, soon after it appear'd. He complain'd to me that they were grievously calumniated by the zealots of other persuasions, and charg'd with abominable principles and practices, to which they were utter strangers. I told him this had always been the case with new sects, and that, to put a stop to such abuse, I imagin'd it might be well to publish the articles of their belief, and the rules of their discipline. He said that it had been propos'd among them, but not agreed to, for this reason:
"When we were first drawn together as a society," says he, "it had pleased God to enlighten our minds so far as to see that some doctrines, which we once esteemed truths, were errors; and that others, which we had esteemed errors, were real truths. From time to time He has been pleased to afford us farther light, and our principles have been improving, and our errors diminishing. Now we are not sure that we are arrived at the end of this progression, and at the perfection of spiritual or theological knowledge; and we fear that, if we should once print our confession of faith, we should feel ourselves as if bound and confin'd by it, and perhaps be unwilling to receive farther improvement, and our successors still more so, as conceiving what we their elders and founders had done, to be something sacred, never to be departed from."
Franklin goes on to say,
'This modesty in a sect is perhaps a singular instance in the history of mankind, every other sect supposing itself in possession of all truth, and that those who differ are so far in the wrong; like a man traveling in foggy weather, those at some distance before him on the road he sees wrapped up in the fog, as well as those behind him, and also the people in the fields on each side, but near him all appears clear, tho' in truth he is as much in the fog as any of them.'
The entire acount may be found at: http://earlyamerica.com/lives/franklin/chapt10/
Thank you for your writings and your good work.
A: Thank you for this fascinating quote. I’m going to pass it on to others, as it really does reflect the way many of us feel. Thanks so much.
Subject: I'm an Anabaptist too
Brian,
Thank you for your writing and for provocative thoughts. Your books have ignited in me an ability to think in new ways – or at least give myself permission to think things I could not put words to previously.
I am currently working through “Generous Orthodoxy” and just finished the chapter on Anabaptists/Anglicans. In reflecting on Anabaptism (I am a member of a Mennonite Brethren church and grew up in that tradition), it seems to me that there is another weakness in our belief/practice. I affirm the value of pacifism and non-violent resistance. We do that quite well when we stand up for the dis-enfranchised. We are willing to give of ourselves to help in very loving and non-judgmental ways. However, we appear to be weak at doing this for ourselves. Our stance on pacifism leads many of us to be quite meek, even wimpy, when we ourselves have been wronged. We hate confronting others when we’re hurt – as if we believe that anger in and of itself is sinful. So, we take wrongs done to us and hesitate to set up healthy boundaries and stick to them. As a result, depression is actually quite a rampant issue among us. We need to learn to be angry, to confront, to stand up for ourselves in ways that build us up as a community.
I could go on (well, I guess I am going on) and say that this inhibition from anger also leads to our accepting a shallower life with other emotions as well – such as joy, sadness, sexual pleasure. We don’t know how to dance – literally. We have to stop everyone from crying and fix problems before we’ve heard them. We refuse to talk about sex and even feel guilty about the fact that we like it. But, if I say those things, I’m probably guilty of painting us all with too broad of a brush. But, now that I’ve done it, it’s probably too late.
Thank you again for your work. I am hoping and trusting that more dialogue with those from other traditions will help us become stronger than we are already. And, I believe that is one of the goals of your writing.
Peace to you,
A: Thanks for these insights. I just read recently that any virtue taken to its extreme can create sickness. This is why we need a constellation of virtues – and another reason why each tradition needs the others and suffers when it lives in isolation. Of course, I don’t know of any Christian community that does very well in exploring human sexuality. Perhaps that’s a frontier we all need to face together.
Subject:
A couple of questions: ?Are you sure that post-modernism "philosophy" entered the academy in the states ?through English departments? I read your answer to the question below. Does this mean that you can't define ?post-modern philosophy? Do you know where the concept of paradigm shift came ?from?
Question: Define postmodern.
In the last two decades, the word "post" has been stuck onto lots of words to ?describe our times. A number of us felt that there is ?a significant change going on, that we are moving beyond the ?intellectual cultural territory that we've been roughly in for the ?last 300 to 500 years. This has stimulated different responses among ?Christian leaders.
Some have taken a kind of circle-the-wagons mentality that says ?we've got to oppose these changes at any cost. Others of us have said ?that this is where we live, so we need to find ways to be faithful to ?God in these changes – philosophically, culturally, even economically ?[in] a global economy, and militarily [in] a world of nuclear, ?biological and chemical weapons.
X (PhD candidate) ? Harvard University ?Cambridge, MA 02138
A: I noticed that you’re a PhD candidate at Harvard, and I can’t help but feel I’m taking a test as I try to answer your questions! As you know, in the world of academia, nearly every point can be disputed, with shelves of books examining every nuance of answer and counterargument. I hope you understand I’m writing for a popular audience and do my best to be accurate, knowing that to say anything opens one to a lot of disputation. So, to your questions:
1. I’m sure that postmodern philosophies (there are many, I suppose, that would fit under this troublesome term, depending on who is defining it) entered the academy through many venues – including philosophy departments (Dr. Quine at your own institution was a key voice back in the 50’s) and architecture departments (where I believe the term first came into broad usage) as well as English departments. Since more people take English than philosophy classes (a fact which I’m sure many lament), it seems that the term gained more of a foothold through English departments. But this is a very minor point, and I wouldn’t want to argue it if you see things differently.
2. I’m certain I can not define postmodern philosophy to the satisfaction of many people, because as I frequently say, the term is under constant dispute. For some people, it means relativism. To others, nihilism. To others, it is all about epistemology. Some people make a major distinction between Anglo-American postmodern philosophy and its continental counterpart. These days, I would define it as philosophy in the aftermath of the Enlightenment, the Holocaust, and Colonialism. That leaves it as a very broad phenomenon, and gives three major fulcra against which it is leveraging itself.
3. As for paradigm shift, I encountered the term through Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions. Perhaps it was used before Kuhn, but I’m unaware of when or by whom. I hope that’s helpful.
Subject: Thanks!
Brian, ?Your trilogy, starting with "A New Kind of Christian", has given me the words I needed to describe the transformational journey my wife and I have been on over the last several years.
THANK YOU! and God's continued blessing on you!
I've shared your books with my dear friend Barry McGuire and he's also grateful. You can here the influence of your words in his blog these days. I've included a link to his blog in case you're interested.
http://www.xanga.com/item.aspx?tab=weblogs&user=barrymcguire&uid=374568863
A: Thanks for writing. Barry probably won’t remember this, but back in the late 70’s he and I shared a trailer at a Jesus Festival in Canada. I was playing back-up guitar for another band. I have great memories of his stories and music.