Questions from December - Part I
OCTOBER 2005
Q: Brian,
I am a Presbyterian (USA) pastor who is extremely frustrated. My journey has led me from the prejudices of the deep South, through education and transformation in a progressive Southern Baptist environment and then to the Presbyterian Church. I was trained as a hospital chaplain and served in hospitals for about 10 years. Over the past 12 years I have served in the parish. Early on I got bored with traditional sermons and started preaching from the center of the chancel. I am now an associate pastor in a church with a contemporary worship service and a traditional service. I am working on my D. Min. at X Seminary in X. My best friend completed his D. Min. at X and through him I have read much of Leonard Sweet's work. In my last class at X we read your first work.
The problem is I am frustrated and exhausted with traditional ministry and denominationalism. I am sick and tired of the gay ordination issue, and am quite in favor of ordaining people of whatever sexual orientation as long as they are able to make and honor commitments. Yes, I would favor allowing gay people to marry. I no longer know where I fit in ministry.
I have come to view myself as an evangelical liberal. The gospel set me free from the racial prejudices of my Southern heritage. It freed me from my desire to judge and label people, and it led me to a more gracious ministry of hope, reconciliation and peace. I love sharing my faith, but it is not a faith that seeks to control, manipulate or coerce. I also love hearing the honest faith stories of people. The end result is I do not know where I fit anymore.
I am not a conservative or fundamentalist Baptist. Also, I am not a Presbyterian so invested in organizational maintenance that I am willing to sacrifice the local congregation for keeping presbyteries and the GA afloat. I am a person wanting to participate in ministry in a setting where I can be a person of integrity and hope.
I love the liturgy of the Church and believe the rituals are of great importance in this time of great uncertainty. I would love to be in a place where I could expand the use of the rituals as I attempt to create what Dr. Sweet has termed "the ancient future."
Therefore, my question is: what is a person like me to do? I feel pigeon-holed and shackled. How can I create a ministry that is creative, energetic and fulfilling?
Thanks for listening, and I hope you will respond.
A: First, thanks for your inquiry. I know that many, many people will read it and feel they identify. Perhaps some denominational leaders will also read it and feel a deep frustration that I hear expressed often. You are in my prayers today. Here’s what I hope can happen for people in your situation:
1. If it is possible for you to stay in your denomination and faithfully lead and serve, I think you will need to ignore the distractions. You’ll need to try to do what you believe is right. You’ll need to find a cohort of friends with whom you can share openly and honestly. If your denomination will not permit you to do what you believe is right, you will need to leave.
2. I hope that for people who must leave their current denominational settings, that other denominations will create some “open space” – places where there is freedom to experiment without excessive outside interference and control. If these kinds of settings are not created …
3. … then I hope that new networks – post-denominational communities for networking and mutual support – will develop as well.
I know this doesn’t help you in the short run. But perhaps you will be one of the people to help pioneer #3, to do for others what you wish had been done for you. Perhaps you could find others with similar concerns through emergentvillage.com?
Q: Brian
Earlier this year I bought and read A Generous Orthodoxy, the only book of yours I've read so far, and I'm writing to express my gratitude for it and to let you know how much it helped me.
I'm 63, and for some years I've been aware that my Christian faith has been changing from the faith I grew up with and was taught as a child, what I was taught and absorbed at theological seminary, and the ethos and official teaching of my church (Lutheran Church of Australia). I have had a strong interest in human rights and social justice issues, which are acknowledged but are not prominent in my church. Because I no longer believed all the things I had been taught, I felt I was slipping to the edge of Christianity, and I sometimes feared I might slide over the edge. In discussions with a close friend I said that I felt that faith was always going to be a struggle for me, that I felt I was sometimes hanging on by the skin of my teeth, but that I felt the Christian story would always be important for me and would have a powerful influence in my life. However, my interests, emphases and primary focus had become different from what I'd grown up with. I sometimes felt that my views were heretical and that perhaps I'd moved so far from the 'true teaching' that I wasn't a real Christian any more. I sometimes felt so uncomfortable with some of my church's teaching and with the beliefs and attitudes of fellow Christians that I felt a greater kinship with non-Christians, and this again made me feel unsure of whether I was still a Christian.
And then I read your book. And with a sense of amazement I found you articulating and affirming the kinds of positions I had been moving towards. These new ideas, attitudes and ways of seeing things were not seen as being dangerous or heretical. Instead you presented them as being a better paradigm than the old paradigm, a good place for a Christian to be. This was enormously important and helpful for me. I came to see that my journey had taken me to a more mature and more soundly based faith. I now felt that, in fact, I was at the centre of the faith and that my previous position (what I'd grown up with) was not the authentic Christianity but was in fact a narrow, somewhat impoverished, perhaps even almost sectarian form of Christianity.
Some of the things that had characterised the change of direction in my journey were the following: a less literal understanding of the message of the Bible and a greater emphasis on the human background and history of the Bible; a much greater interest in Jesus as a historical person; a greater interest in Jesus' teachings, especially about non-violence (love of enemies), instead of focusing almost exclusively on his suffering, death and resurrection; seeing social justice concerns as central to what it means to being a Christian, not something peripheral; less emphasis on the other-worldly aspects of Christian faith and a greater focus on what being a Christian means for our life here on earth; no longer seeing Christianity as primarily a personal matter of how to get to heaven and avoid going to hell; changing attitudes about what Christian mission means and how it should be undertaken; changing attitudes towards other religions and their relationship to Christianity. In relation to all these matters, and others, your book affirmed the direction in which I was moving and helped me to come to a clearer and more coherent view.
Your book helped me to recognise and understand a faith that I now feel I can embrace much more confidently and enthusiastically. It's a faith that I feel has intellectual integrity and that I don't have to feel uncomfortable or embarrassed about. It's also a faith that can embrace doubt, struggle, inquiry and searching. Your book has helped me to feel good about being a follower of Jesus. It has reinvigorated my faith. It has had a freeing and liberating effect in my life. I have had the feeling that your book came to me at this particular time in my life as a kind of lifeline.
I subsequently spoke about the book to several of my friends, and I know that some of them bought it.
I was ordained as a Lutheran pastor and worked in rural and urban parishes as well as spending 14 years working with Aboriginal people in central Australia. For the past 15 years I have been involved in Christian publishing, and I now see myself as a professional editor. At university I studied English literature and I still read a lot of literary fiction as well as a wide range of non-fiction, so I was interested to see your own background in literature studies.
With thanks and kind regards
A: Thanks so much for sharing your story. I imagine that many people will resonate with your journey. I am so grateful that the book was helpful to you. Perhaps we’ll meet when I visit Australia in 06 or 07. (See the schedule for contact information.)
Q: Subject: getting honest with my pastor
Dear Brian,
I have just finished your latest book “the last word and the word after that” and I am so excited by it just as I found myself after reading your other books but I am struggling with being involved in a congregation that is led by a man and his wife who apparently see the gospel in a different light, or at least the issue of salvation in a different light. I know that you personally know my pastor … and I know that you are well acquainted with there passion for missional work but from what I can glean they still hold firm to the traditional view of who’s in and who’s out.
Personally, I have be on a journey that has taken me full circle. I became a believer through a 12 step program and naturally gravitated toward God’s unconditional love but soon meet Christians that told me I had to say certain words and believe those word in my heart in order to be “saved”. I so wanted to belong to the club that I acted as if, said the magic words and everyone shouted hallelujah she’s saved! I grew into a black and white Christian and stayed that way for a number of years. Then I met a friend on the internet who has been my Neo. Slowly and gradually he started pointing things out to me that made me start thinking for myself instead of relying only on the preacher du jour. After a long and sometimes tumultuous dialog my eyes were wide open to many new ideas or a new theology of Grace. I was back to God as an unrelenting lover of souls. No one was too wretched for him to love and to pour His Grace out upon. Nothing could separate us from the love of God not even ourselves.
I guess if I had to label what I believe, it would fall under the universalist category. I would be considered the ultimate heretic at my church if I were to go public with my beliefs. I do know that there are some in leadership there that have a closer view to the gospel to my view but in the end no one outwardly says much that is contrary to the standard beliefs held by most evangelicals.
I feel as if I am a lamb surrounded by wolves but temporarily protected by the wolf grab that I am currently wearing. I am afraid to take off the wolf outfit for fear I will be chewed up and spit out. You see I am one of the church’s worship leader [only on occasion but nevertheless a worship leader] and though I don’t preach I do represent the church whenever I stand up to lead and if the pastors [and the elders] knew what I honestly believed I do think my days as a worship leader would be over. I can hear your answer coming… maybe you should just get honest with your church and trust God with the outcome. Well I think that is what I am preparing my heart to do. I do love worshipping with God’s people and I love using the gifts He has given me to do so but that is what I guess I must become willing to give up to be true to what I feel He has revealed to me over the last 6 years.
I guess my question to you would be how should I go about this self disclosure? Since you know X, do you have any insight for me? I am pretty sure X is clearly in the you must be saved to get into heaven camp. We had a discussion about the state of my dead parents souls and the theology of a song I wrote about them called “dancing in heaven”. She asked me point blank if the theology of the song was sound and further asked if I knew if my parents were actually saved and in heaven? I didn’t lie to her but I didn’t get completely honest with her either at that moment so…
How I long for a community where I could hang out with and talk about things of God and have questions about God and get honest, real discussion about growing in faith, love and hope and not just the parroted wisdom of the traditional church. Thankfully I have a few local friends who are reading your books and others like them and are being awakened to the new possibility of knowing Jesus and serving Jesus and by doing so, changing the world a litlle bit at a time.
Thanks for reading this [if not Brian, whomever]. I also appreciate any words of wisdom that you might have to help me bring this ‘truth’ into the light of day at my current church.
A: Your story will resonate with many people, I’m sure. As you know from reading The Last Word, I’m sympathetic with your discomfort with many traditional understandings, although I don’t take the universalist path for reasons the book explains. I actually would not recommend your creating a scene with your pastor(s). I’d recommend you serve, keeping potentially divisive opinions to yourself, as long as you can in good conscience. (I’m thinking of Paul’s guidance in Romans 14 – to hold our disputable matters between ourselves and God.) If you feel doing so breaches integrity, then here’s what I’d recommend: that you quietly, gently, humbly go to your pastor(s), explain your beliefs, and offer to withdraw from your leadership position and even from the church if they would prefer you do so. Don’t do it as a manipulative move, but as a gracious expression of a desire to preserve both integrity and harmony in the fellowship. Obviously, this should be done with sensitivity to the Holy Spirit as to timing, expressed in I Corinthians 13-style character, with a non-attacking, non-defensive spirit, and with sincere diligence to preserve the unity of the Holy Spirit. May God help you, and all who share your situation.
Q: Subject: the New Testament Church vs. the Postmodern church?
I am a youth pastor for a Church of Christ congregation. I've been reading you for probably three years now as I studied at Messiah College for degrees in English (maybe this is why I like you?) and Chiristian mission. You spoke there once and I really hope you return someday soon.
1) The Stone-Campbell churches tend to claim a "return to the New Testament Church." I struggle with this claim. While it feels a bit impossible to fulfill, I have never read the books of Acts like a manual to emulate. While you have compared a postmodern church to a "remembering" church---even the New Testament church was culturally bound so we don't want to just emulate that, right? Is there a conflict there at all? New Testament or Postmodern? what does both look like?
2) As a youth pastor, I've had many complaints about my "bad kids" and my discipline. While I realize I need to maintain some control, I've been trying to teach my kids with respect of their opinions---so that when they turn into college students they won't hate Jesus for my cut-corners. I feel like the "adult" church wouldn't want a missional youth ministry because Mom and Pop Christian don't want their kids associating with "kids who cuss." I'm sorry for my latent spitefulness. Do you have any suggestions for being a missional youth ministry, especially since this teens are more postmodern than their parents? Could you get me started on some authors for postmodern youth ministry?
3) I'm starting to lose hope for ministry here. I'm meeting more and more disenfranchised people who love Jesus but hate the church. I had a woman say to me "I love Jesus, but I hate his fan club." As a pastor, I feel like the enemy...sometimes I don't even want to admit I'm a pastor. Thank you for your written mentorship. Please pray that God will help us reconstruct what "pastor" means.
I hope I can hear back from you. ?
A: Thanks for sharing your struggle, one that many share. Regarding postmodern youth ministry – I highly recommend Tony Jones’ books on this subject. I talk about restorationist churches (my background too, although a different brand) in Church on the Other Side, and in A Generous Orthodoxy – I think you’ll find whatever I can offer there. Regarding your specific assignment now … please don’t get discouraged. Sometimes, people like yourself find themselves being led to plant a church. I hope you’ll consider that option – either planting a church, or joining a church planting team - before you get too frustrated or discouraged and are tempted to leave ministry altogether.
Q: Subject: a real "emergent village"
Greetings!
I'm one of those countless thousands who stumbled upon brian's work and felt an immediate bond. Although I'm privileged to be currently using my law degree to serve some of "the least of these" in Ohio (www.mobilejustice.com), there's always been another part of me that dreams God-sized dreams for the body of Christ (particularly in America). I have a joint degree in organizational leadership that sees Truth as the natural offspring of two strange bed partners -- seminary and MBA school.
For some time now, I've envisioned Someplace Safe for emerging Christian thinkers/theologians/philosophers/apologists from around the globe to engage in meaningful, ongoing conversation. I can see it so clearly -- a beautiful campus offering a "stress free" retreat environment with no distractions. Whether you come for a weekend, a week, or a whole year of sabbatical, you will find friends eager to develop, refine, and question your great (and even troubling) ideas. Alternatively, we can also leave you alone for quiet conversations with our Father.
I sense this is the time -- and place -- to launch a real Emergent Village that post-modern leaders of all stripes can call "home" (at least in this wilderness)...
What do you think? Any interest in pursuing this dream? You can email or simply call me at XXX to talk about it. In any case, I'm so excited to find like-minded brothers and sisters on the other side, I'm dancing right now (trust me, I am)!!
A: Maybe some folks will find you via the website above! It sounds like a worthy vision. We need safe places as you describe. Maybe a L’Abri, the next generation?
Q: Subject: Help!
Dear Brian,
I am writing this from my parents house as I am up in X, Scotland for a short holiday. My own email address is X
To fill you in on my situation, I am Minister of a small Baptist Church in X on the X. I have been ministering there for over five years and I think that I have had enough. I am working with all kinds of troubled people and one of the things that has become evident to me is that evangelicalism as it is now practiced in the so-called Christian west is a toothless tiger. I have spent a lot of time recently working with lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered young people as part of my other work i.e. a youth information worker for the local council. I find that I can no longer defend my denomination's or tradition's teachings on sexuality. I find myself in the same position on the Church's support for Israel and other sacred evangelical cows. More and more I am coming to the position that the Jesus which I read about in the New Testament is not the Jesus whom I hear about in Churches and who was taught when I was in Seminary. He had time for people. The Jesus who is taught doesn't seem to have that time. He seems to be an angry Jesus, Jesus who rails against gays yet who has nothing to say about pride and corporate greed. In your recent books I have, however, detected signs of hope. They have given me hope for the future. I don't know where my journey is going but I do know that it is heading in the right direction. Bono of U2 once wrote, "I still haven't found what I'm looking for." That isn't a bad place to be,
A: As you’ll see by reading other postings here, you are not alone. Perhaps we can meet when I’m in your part of the world in 06. May God bring together all of this pent up energy and desire and make us a fruitful expression of the good news!
Q: Subject: Should Non-Trinitarians be tagged "CULTS"?
Hi Brian,What do you think about Evangelical and Fundamental Protestants tagging Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, and basically ALL faith groups of Judeo-Christian theme who simply happen to not embrace the trinity as "CULTS"? Do you think faith groups should be called "CULTS" merely on the grounds that they happen to npt embrace the trinity?
A: You bring up an important question. I am deeply Trinitarian, but I understand why some people are not. I am also sensitive to the way that labels can be used to savage outsiders and massage insiders: “cult” is often used that way. Once I jumped all over a “cult” member (not literally, but verbally) when I heard him use some clichés typical of his group. When I finished my tirade, he almost had tears in his eyes and he said, “I’m sorry. I’m just telling you what I was taught. I didn’t know there was anything wrong with it. I didn’t mean to cause trouble.” He was so meek and sincere - I had humiliated him and felt ashamed.
Q: Subject: The Secret Message of Jesus
Brian,
I just finished reading one of the advance reader’s copies of The Secret Message of Jesus and loved it. Much of your journey has been familiar territory for me and the ministry team that I am a part of. Chapters 18-20 I found especially stirring and for the first time am excited about bringing Revelation to the table for discussion. Know that God is doing a good work through you.
I know that you are flooded with emails and may not have time to respond to this, but I do have one question for you. I am someone who for the past 10 years or so has been journeying toward this whole rediscovery of Jesus and his message thing. I also minister as part of the directional leaders for an interchurch ministry in one of the most backward Christian cultures in the country—the Upstate of South Carolina. In other words, our ministry is describing a way of following Jesus that is very different than Christianity has been or is being defined by the existing Christian structures in the area. We are doing this pretty successfully (not that success is what matters) in the area for young adults, but we are having a hard time making inroads into the broader Christian culture in our area—they think that we are just a bunch of mavericks who won’t go along with the way things have always been (which is funny because most of them don’t realize the way things are aren’t the way they have always been). So my question is, When do you try to revolutionize the Christianity that you are in and when do dust off your feet and move to a culture that is more open? I love this area, and my heart goes out to those who have been spiritually abused by the Christian culture here. But at the same time I want our ministry to be taken seriously in the dialogue of Christianity in our area. Since our ministry has a national platform of sorts, it almost seems like the things that we are talking about are more easily grasped when we travel to other places (places that are more progressive) than in our continued struggle to change the local culture of Christianity. So, I guess I’m also asking is there any hope of changing existing Christian structures peaceably or do we have to be considered heretics in our home town?
Thanks again for your book and know that there are those all around the country who are listening to what God is saying through you.
A: I’m glad you like the new book. I am praying and hoping that it will be helpful to many people. I think situations like yours must be handled on a case-by-case basis, through prayer and discernment, always guided by the Scriptures. A few thoughts to keep in mind… First, your setting is part of what has created you. In other words, if things were easier, you wouldn’t be as radical as you are. It’s no accident that many of the boldest pioneers came from the most restrictive settings. Second, if you do leave that setting, others will need to carry on there – because there are people being born every day there, or coming of age every day there, who will need what you are doing. Third, Paul was able to do a both-and. He didn’t stay in one place forever, but he left people who would stay there after he moved on. Perhaps these few thoughts will be of some help in your discernment process – a process many will identify with, because they feel as you do.
Q: Subject: Finding Faith
Brian,
I'm on page 201 of your book "Finding Faith". I come from a family with a ?Catholic background. It's basically my dad's side of the family. My ?grandmother was more of the enforcer of it.
I never really got into it beyond the concept of a God exists. It kind of ?felt like the religion was shoved down my throat and walked away.
I met a girl, whom I'm not dating anymore, but what inspired me to look was ?that there were genuine characteristics about her, and that she had a strong ?relationship with God. I was one of those guys who felt that when I ?encountered those with faith, they seemed to overuse the word Jesus/God ?Bless, seemed to be in every sentence in their vocabulary. Nothing wrong ?with that, but it didn't seem right for me. However, I met her, and I found ?a spark to gain more interest in knowledge.
It felt like I'd been in a coma against this type of knowledge where I feel ?that I have to learn a lot. I found your book on Amazon.com and read the ?customer reviews, which inclined me to read.
From what I can read, I'm starting to gather my knowledge of the path to ?Truth, and it doesn't seem artificial anymore, but it's going to take a lot ?of time. I was recommended to read Mere Christianity by CS Lewis after this ?one.
I noticed real quickly that you're planning a trip to New Zealand. I was ?trying to schedule something around February, but finances got to me, and so ?I'll have to plan it for 2007.
Keep us informed on your knowledge and your trip!
A: Thanks for your note, and the update on your progress in your spiritual journey. I hope that many who read this post will join me in praying for you. I always enjoy meeting readers when I travel – so perhaps we’ll connect some time in the future.
A: Subject: please write a bible commentary
Brian,
Your books are interesting and life-changing. But much of what you say I cannot square with all of what I read in the Bible. I am a fan and a listener, but would like to strengthen my new “emerging” faith. Would you consider doing a verse by verse exposition of a key Book of the Bible or could you recommend one that closely represents what you view as “emergent” Biblical theology?
I am another pastor trying to be current, biblical, and consistent.
Please Help.
A: Maybe some day! In the meantime, here are some of my favorite writers on the Bible.
Old Testament: Walter Brueggemann
Gospels: N. T. Wright, Steve Chalke
Epistles: See “Colossians Remixed” by Keezmaat and Walsh.
Q: Subject: The Story We Find Ourselves In
Dear Brian,
I hope you remember me. When you visited X University last year, I came up and talked to ?you. My name is X and I am an ?environmental science major. We discussed my Green ?club and the upcoming Green House (In which I am now ?successfully living!). My goal in life is to educate ?people about sustaining God's glorious creation.
I have greatly enjoyed reading your books, and just ?finished "The Story We find Ourselves In". Wonderful. ? Your story of God's glory in this world was well ?done. Yet, when I find myself discussing evolution ?with people, it seems to go nowhere. Plus, I am ?somewhere in the middle. I am a progressive ?creationist, believing in evolution as a force in ?ecosystems, non-evolution in humans, and punctuated ?creation over the course of thousands (perhaps ?millions) of years. Also, I believe that the earth is ?old, as shown by the mention of water and rock before ?the "official" creation began. ? Perhaps I should start from the beginning. I grew ?up in a very decided 6-day creationist family. I ?always thought evolution and christianity mixed like ?oil and water. Yet, when I got to college, I found ?many ways that I could continue my deep faith in God ?and yet accept the mechanism of evolution. This has ?caused a lot of conflict in my family. My younger ?sister constantly makes sarcastic remarks about me ?being ok with evolution. My mom and dad are trying to ?"reconvert" me and bring me back to the 6-day view. ?Worst of all, last Christmas, I had a terrible fight ?with my sister about evolution. She accused me of ?doubting God, believing the Bible was a myth, and ?listening to everything that people told me. Coming ?from one of my mentors, that was hard to hear. We ?made up, but now no one is willing to even bring up ?the issue. ? I pretty much avoid talking about creation and ?evolution within christian circles, because it only ?causes more division. I talk about how the point of ?the Bible is to convey a message, not scientific ?truths or explanations. Then they say I am doubting ?God. If I mention how it does not have to be six ?literal days, then immediately I have made the entire ?Bible a myth. Even with the story approach, I am ?branded an evolutionist, not believing in God's power ?in this world, only in blind mechanisms. ? I guess the question I am attempting to ask is, "How ?do I have mature conversations about evolution with my ?Christian friends?" They seem to write me off as a ?certain category, but I am not. How do you keep the ?criticism from becoming divisive instead of ?constructive? The characters in your book seem almost ?inhuman, because if I even bring up the word ?evolution, immediately everyone's ears shut. I want ?to be able to discuss this without bringing into ?question God's power, but no one seems to listen. If ?you have any advice, please email me back.
Again, I am a huge fan, having read three of your ?books. Please continue writing and working for the ?communion of the churches.
A: So good to hear from you. What a shame that your family focuses on this one thing – without appreciating the great things you’re doing with the Green Club and Green House! You’re caring for God’s creation – and that’s important work that should be celebrated! It’s also sad, as you say, that so many Christians are defensive and uncharitable with those who honestly disagree. My suggestion is not to bring up the subject with most of them – or if you do, do it gently in a nondirective way, something like … “I have a different view from some Christians on the subject of evolution, but I don’t want to make it a subject of argument or division.” Then, if they want to explore further, they can, but you’ve already set some “non-fighting” boundaries. The whole subject – when we take away the tension – is so interesting and worth discussing. I hope there will be more and more “safe zones” for honest dialogue so that interesting and thoughtful people like yourselves will be heard – and not just defensive or fearful people.
Q Subject: Just Wanted to Say Thank You to Brian
(To the recepient of this email: If you could get a chance to send this to ?Brian in the midst of his busy schedule whenever the chance arises whether ?its today or ten years from now I'd greatly appreciate it, Thank you so ?much!)
Dear Brian I just wanted to say thank you for answering Gods call to ?ministry. I've briefly met you at Cedar Ridge and at a conference in ?Cincinatti at the Skyline Chili place(the food was not the greatest), I was ?also in many of the same classes as Brett at Roosevelt. I'll try to keep ?this short because of your schedule. I have to say I have found so much ?encouragement through your books and talks. I grew up in a loving Christian ?home and found myself quite disillusioned with my faith in the college ?years. Even though I was aware of this disillusionment I made the strange ?decision to hold onto my faith to see where it would lead. After graduating ?from Maryland last spring, I am currently serving as a missionary to college ?students at the University of ?? (somebodys got to tell people about ?Jesus in a warm sunny place like ??). Even though I am serving in a ?leadership capacity as a missionary I am still quite restless when it comes ?to faith, I think I'm still in Stage 3 in Finding Faith. However, anytime I ?get to be involved in an event or a situation that is fruitful I soak up ?every moment of it like a person finding an oasis in the desert.
I just finished a great conversation thirty minutes ago with someone who is ?far more disillusioned with Christianity than I am. This guy XX who I just ?met today, was one of the most honest and sincere people I've met. He shared ?with me of his sheltered upbringing as a missionary kid in Venezuela, he ?believed everything his parents taught him about the Bible word for word ?literally. Then he got the evolution, alcohol, partying exposure in college ?and I'm guessing he got his world of faith completly destroyed. He told me ?of his disbelief in god, his leaning towards existentialism, and his love of ?living in the moment, he feels christianity is a crutch for people etc.
And yet through hearing all of his problems with Christianity, I couldn't ?help but feel hope in Christ during our conversation. From your ministry I ?found hope in counting conversations and not just conversions. I was filled ?with joy that the students that I'm sharing life with got to witness an ?example of a Christian just listening and not having to feel like the ?Christian had to have all of the answers. I was filled with gratefulness ?when I overheard one student say that they learned so much from the ?conversation that took place. I was also filled with brokeness because he ?found no point in having hope and in believing in God. I have no idea why ?but through all of this I still find hope and your writings and talks have ?been of great help through my disillusionment. It's pretty rare when I get ?this hopeful so I thank God so much. I cant wait to read The Secret Message ?of Jesus. Thanks for your hard work!!!
A: Thanks for your encouragement. Keep up the good work with students. What you’re doing is needed and important. Never give up!
Q: Subject: Your books
Mr. McLaren,
I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate your writing. I had gotten to a point in my life where my faith didn't make any sense, but it didn't make any less sense than not believing at all. The worship minister at my church referred me to ANKOC, and after my parents got it for my birthday, I read it in about 2 hours. I've since read it again, as well as "The Story We Find Ourselves In" and I just got The Last Word for Christmas from my girlfriend. I'm about halfway through it.
I just wanted to express how much I appreciate your words, well, your letting God speak through you. I realize it was probably difficult to write these books, especially knowing the backlash from the Fundamentalist community that soon followed. But your books helped save my faith, and for that I am forever grateful.
A: As you can imagine, encouraging notes like yours make it much easier to bear some of the less charitable responses. Thanks.
Q: Subject: Thank you
Brian,
Thank you for the PowerPoint from the XXX seminar. It will ?be helpful in my continued understanding of our cultures (and my personal) ?shift into a 'post-modern' society.
I agree that the terms 'objective' and 'subjective' are broad and ?simplistic. It seems to me, based upon several discussions and books ?concerning the shift into post-modernism, that the terms or phrases used by ?those in each phase of the paradigm shift (modern - transition - ?post-modern) are similar and even the same, but the meanings of these terms ?or phrases are completely different.
This makes the dialogue of concepts and ideas very difficult. You might ?have a college professor of 50+ years teaching philosophy or contemporary ?culture using words with specific meanings intended, but his/her students ?have grown up in a culture where through their paradigm the meanings of ?these words are different. Leading the students to a different conclusion ?of the discussions/lectures than the professor intended.
A: Yes, as you say, translation has to happen not only between languages but within languages too!
Q: Subject: Now that helps me understand a little bit better
Dear Brian,
I think I might owe you an apology. I may have jumped to conclusions regarding you and the emergent movement. Although I have read one of your books, a few articles, scanned a web site here and there, I never fully invested the time to try and understand what Emergent was all about. I just read your interview with the Dallas Morning News - now ?that helps me understand a little bit better. So - for what it is worth - I am sorry. I'll try not to jump to conclusions. I realize now how ?close we actually are - and how much I'd like to be a part of what is ?happening. I don't have a clue how a guy like me could do that - not ?even sure that's what God would want. Anyway - you've got lots to do - and so do I. Just wanted to apologize. God's Peace To You.
A: What a beautiful and kind thing to do. I am receiving a growing number of responses like this, which encourages me greatly. We’re all in this together – learning, making mistakes, jumping to conclusions, having second thoughts – that’s what life and growth are about. Much love to you, brother.
Q: Subject: a new question from X
Brian, ?I know you're an incredibly busy man. Between the roles of father, ?husband, author, pastor, and spiritual leader for many - I know that ?your time for me is probably quite limited if non-existant. But, I'm ?really struggling through some things, and while I know that that's ?the point - I'm not quite sure where to turn in community here.
Not that long ago, I wrote and asked for recommendations on an ?"Emergent" church to attend in my area. Ironically, one that you ?recommended was 15 minutes from my house. (I say ironically, because I ?didn't expect there to be one so close.) I've gone a few times. (XX is the church, and I understand you have a friendship with the pastor/founder/whatever he's called, XX.) But one part of my struggle is the whole church decision. I know the church that I've been attending is no longer where I need to be. In part because of the theology changes I'm going through, but several other church ?structure related reasons too. My struggle with XX is slightly a ?personal one, that I've come from a church with attendance/membership ?in the thousands, and there have been about 20 people at most when I've attended XX, and all in the same general generation category as me. Not a big deal, but a big change for me. Some of it, too, revolves around my history of having my social life centered in my friendships through church, and as a single woman, there's another issue involved in that. In other words, I've always expected that God would bring about a husband through my social group, which is church, in due time. Well, now, I'd be throwing myself into a social group that, at this point, doesn't really offer "good chances" of that happening. Like I said, a personal issue, I'm trying to hear God in the midst of. Because I know that the churchy answer is to hear God say yes or no to my going there, and trust him also take care of that issue. So, why I brought it up, I'm not sure. But rather than erase all of it, I'll leave it in case you have words of wisdom for me there.
The other part of the church issue is actually a question that began forming a few moments ago, while reading The Story We Find Ourselves In. As I've been in the process of reading both that book and A New Kind of Christian, I've been growing and changing in tremendous ways spiritually. Those books, in combination with where God has already ?been leading me, and dialogues on the internet about the topic of "emergent" led me to rewrite you on the issue of the "emergent church". Especially through conversations on the internet, I've come to wonder if the ideas that I have thought came out of A New Kind of Christian, which, in my understanding, led to the "emergent" movement - have gotten messed up (for lack of a better way of phrasing that). It seems like the emergent movement is quickly turning into a new ?denomination of churches, with it's own set of doctrines and beliefs ?and interpretations of Scripture, that is quickly moving away from what I'm understanding the original intent of the idea is. Because my understanding from A New Kind of Christian, the idea is to not put everything into nice, neat, organized categories and such anymore. That, to do that, to make new doctrines and a new way of doing "church" is exactly the opposite of what a new kind of Christian is supposed to do. I'm referring here to a conversation between Dan and Neo when Neo was adament that the modernistic, traditional way of churches is to make things neatly and organizationally structured and ?measured.
Help, please?! I'm not sure what my question is exactly, because there is a personal tension of remembering that you are not, in yourself, Dan Poole or Neo as a fully real individual. I guess I'm stuck because I know I still need church, sort of, (maybe not in the context that I've grown up with down here in the Bible Belt), but I'm struggling to figure out how to incorporate all this new stuff into something old (new wine in old wineskins?), and yet not try to reinvent the wheel, so to speak, when it comes to church, either.
I guess my question might be something like this: Based on the ideas formed in the A New Kind of Christian series, what should church look like now? I know this is a big thing to wrestle with and struggle through, which I personally need to do over time, but I think I need some initial direction. My purpose now is about being like Jesus (which means being out in the real, tangible, sometimes unpleasant world), not sitting in a pew every Sunday morning being good at being churchy. But what do I still need? What things need to stay in regards to the Church. I know I still need fellowship. And you're a pastor of a church, so obviously the community there is still important in your mind. But part of me doesn't want to be under the spiritual leadership of someone who doesn't get this stuff. Who ?doesn't get the openness of what Neo and Dan are talking about, of allowing God to really blow away some previous notions if he needs to. To allow some radical-ness into our church lives/thoughts.
I guess my question might be more about - What am I looking for? How do I find this kind of dialogue within the leadership of a church? Do I have to move up North to find more openmindedness and yet a congregation that isn't so new that it's not very diverse generationally? Should I really even look for what would be entitled an "emergent church"?
I guess my heart is the desire to have a pastor like Dan Poole. One who is the process of figuring all this out, while staying in the midst of a congregation of people who don't all get it. The problem is that I don't really have the personal relationship with anyone who is a pastor to know that something like this would be going on behind-the-scenes in their life. That's the hard part about "creative non-fiction" - wishing the fictional part were actually non-fiction. If that makes any sense.
Ok, I know you're are tremendously busy. Especially as a pastor with Christmas right around the corner. If there is any way you have time to help me, it would be more than appreciated. I need some guidance and direction on this issue. And even though I don't know you other than aquaintence through reading your work, right now I feel like you're the only one whose answers I can trust on this issue. Maybe that sounds weird.
I guess I feel a little like April was (aka "Alice" - More Ready) once upon a time. You've opened my eyes to a side of God, or maybe better put as Christianity even, that's so enticing, and right now, I need you to help me figure out how to really get there, and then what to do with it once I am. And I know that that's a tall order to fill now that you're, for lack of a better term, famous and busy. But if there's any room in your life for a personal interaction with me on ?this, I could use it.
A: I wish I had time to get to know you and be of more substantive help. I hope that the new community you’re exploring will provide what I can’t. A few thoughts –
1. About the emerging church becoming rigid, etc. Perhaps this is happening in some places, but I’m seeing a tremendous amount of variety and creativity, and an increasing breadth of denominations involved rather than the reverse. What you speak of is always a danger, no doubt.
2. I think a lot of single people feel as you do – they want to connect with a small community, but they want to keep their social circle large enough to meet a potential life partner. I wonder if there might be some way to do a both/and? I wish I had an easy answer to this one!
3. As to what the church should be … can I recommend to books? My “Church on the Other Side” might be helpful, but even better – try Dietrich Bonhoeffer’s “Life Together.” I think it will mean a lot to you, especially the section on “wish dreams.
Subject: A HUGE Impact
Brian-
My name is x. I first met you in 1999 through a book you wrote "Reinventing Your Church" I read for a class. Since then I have worked in a handfull of churches trying to find my place. Oddly enough, I find myself today as the president of a ministry my parents started 15 years ago called x, which is based in x. It's goal is to open tuition free christian schools in poverty areas. We have 10 schools, two in Africa, two in Mexico and six in x.
Just this year I was asked to come to x & help a local church down here reinvent itself. It has been challenging! I am the executive assistant at x. Talk about Pentecostalism gone wild! So at the beginning of this year, right after my father (age x) died from cancer, I packed my stuff and with my wife and two boys (ages x) we left x and went to obey the Voice within.
Since 2003, after hearing a guy named Rob Bell speak, I have been studying the world of the first century. Wow! My spirituality took a hard right turn & started moving in hyper-drive speed. Talk about having to redefine what you always thought!
A few weeks ago after talking to a friend of mine about what God was doing in me & sharing the struggles of my new position in x, he gave me your book "A New Kind of Christian". Words can not express what is going on in my spirit. You have articulated what was & is going on on the inside of me and I'll never be the same! I am almost done with the second book & have already bought the third.
We have a ministry training center down here and I had already been teaching a class on grace. x and his grace books had been the backdrop for that class. I had already been labeled the "liberal" controversial new guy because of what I had been asked to do at the church & the way that I taught, but when you "re-invaded" my life, it went to that next level.
No worries though. Some criticize, but most are responding incredibly. One draw back though, some of the leadership (Senior Pastor, $ guy, and just a couple others) are not really excited about a new kind of spirituality, they just want a new church. Funny? I thought you would have to have the first one before you could have the later?
Nevertheless, the people of the church can't stop talking about some of the concepts I have been talking about. Remember, this is a VERY Pentecostal place, but the people are open. What a huge observation I think: people ready, leadership not ready.
To make a long story short (And if you know anything about this place, you would know it is a long story), it looks as though my time here is coming to an end. It was supposed to be a 2 year contract, but tomorrow we have a meeting to "renegotiate" my contract. Here is the funny thing though: my personal spiritual journey is stronger than it has ever been & even though I have more questions than answers these days, I am more confident about my faith than ever!
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I will be 29 in a few weeks & I have no idea what my next step in life is going to be BUT I know that I know God will direct my steps. May God's blessing continue to be on you as you continue to be a blessing to others!
A: What a beautiful story. I was just in a Latin American country among some wonderful Pentecostal people who are doing amazing things among the poor – a very different focus than we normally find here in the US! I think that when Pentecostals get freed up from some modern misconceptions and legalism and begin to understand the message of the kingdom of God, they become an incredibly powerful and positive group (not that they aren’t anyway!). I hope we’ll get to meet sometime. Please look me up if you’re ever at an event where I’m speaking.
Subject: Sincere Question
I was raised in a very loving yet traditional American Baptist church in the heart of Indiana. Although I’ve always considered myself a Christian, since becoming a father five years ago, my desire and quest for a relationship with our Eternal Father has accelerated and I have begun questioning some of my fundamentalist beliefs. Thanks to books like Philip Gulley’s “If Grace is True”, Tom Talbott’s “The Inescapable Love of God”, and Father Richard Rohr’s “Everything Belongs”, I have jettisoned some of the “rigid beliefs” which I believe try to cage God’s grace & love.
I am curious if Mr. McLaren has read Marcus Borg’s “The Heart of Christianity” or Father Richard Rohr’s “Everything Belongs” and if so what his reaction to them are. I realize these “progressive” Christians are rather controversial, but I find them liberating. Rather than focusing on believing the “right” things, we should focus on following Jesus’ example which is best summed up in Mark 12:30-31:
30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[b] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [c]There is no commandment greater than these.
Thank you for your time and your contribution to the great dialogue.
Blessings-
A: I was just with Richard Rohr a few days ago. What a wonderful Christian and leader he is, just radiant with the Spirit of Christ. I haven’t met Marcus Borg in person yet, but we are supposed to work together later this year. I am not coming from the same background Marcus is, so I wouldn’t always say things just as he does – and he would say the same about me, I’m sure – but I find Marcus’ work helpful and important in many ways. In my travels, I regularly meet people for whom his work has made faith in Christ more possible and plausible. His newest book, The Last Week (with Dominic Crossan) is very informative and useful, and shows that so-called liberals do indeed take the Bible very seriously, contrary to what many of my evangelical friends think.
Subject: question
Dear Brian,
As a pastor's son and pastor myself, I was interested to read you book, A New Kind of Christian. I have always considered myself somewhat open minded---at least willing to learn from others before judging them. I was raised Assembly of God, immersed in the Charismatic Movement (1970s) attend a Lutheran Church for 12 years before attending a conservative Bible college followed by a master's degree from a very Liberal Seminary (United Church of Christ). I was on staff at a United Methodist church for 7 years before I started the non-denominational church I presently pastor a non-denomination, evangelical church.
Although I agree with some of your observations and critiques about the evangelical community--especially their lack of living the "full gospel" with regard to social needs, I'm having trouble with your position on many things. I have to tell you that most of what you write seems like a fresh packaging of the definitions of Christianity I was taught in main-line, 1980's seminary. I found very little--if anything "new" at all in your writings that differs from what I was taught 20 years ago. I find myself wondering if evangelicals who are "discovering" new insight from your writings are ignorant of the theology,sociology, psychology taught in most liberal seminaries 20 years ago. I'm afraid that you may be leading a group of discouraged and bewildered evangelicals blindly into the pool of modern theological liberalism, existentialism and multicultural relativism. In other words---this isn't really an emergent movement at all---its a subtle re-dressing of liberalism tailored to fit the evangelical's aging,tired body. The real problem for me is that everyone knows that liberal theology was birthed out of a perceived need to be relative. We see now how effective their approach was. Most mainline churches have not only failed to be relative to outsiders, they have lost their congregations.
Here's my question: What about your "new emerging Christian" is different from the classic liberal Christian of the 70s and 80s? Could you please say what you think they would find new, objectionable or helpful in your positions?
God's Best Always..
A: You probably don’t mean to intend this, but your distaste for mainline or liberal Protestantism seems to imply that unless “they” would find my work objectionable and different, my work must not be worth much. In other words, if “they” like it, it must not be good. The kind of liberal Christianity you are referring to, I think, has so receded that I don’t hear much from those folks, except occasionally someone who says I sound like warmed-over evangelicalism! In other words, some alienated evangelicals feel about me much the same as you – wishing I would be more different from their failed background. I do hear often from people from mainline backgrounds who share your sense that old liberalism isn’t going anywhere, and they feel I am (among many others) providing and alternative. Perhaps some of them will read your letter and send in a response that I can include in the future.
I would offer a slightly different explanation for “mainline decline” than you. Yes, I think that when people lose personal faith in and commitment to a personal God, their religion soon becomes pretty weightless. But I also believe that mainline Protestantism was so named when it was the civil religion of America, and when it broke faith with the unwritten covenant of a civil religion in the 1960’s by speaking prophetically about civil rights and the Viet Nam war, millions of Americans decided they would rather be affiliated with a faithful civil religion, which is, I think, an underappreciated reason both for mainline decline since the 60’s and for conservative growth. By the way, when mainline pastors became two-issue preachers (civil rights and war), they lost a broader sense of the gospel, just as the religious right seems to be doing with their own two issues (abortion and gay marriage).
Brian,
[1] My name is X and I am a recent graduate of X Bible College … in Canada. I have read several of your books and find myself drawn in time and again, although I then wonder if my fascination and adherence to postmodernist ideology isn’t, in itself, symptomatic of my magic bullet modernist upbringing; the construction of a new Deconstructionism which will save us and the world from all past woes.
I wondered as I finished A Generous Orthodoxy, how you kept (keep) yourself from becoming a hopeless narcissist,[2] as so many see you as the laymen’s gatekeeper into the land of postmodern enlightenment. You are, to some, the Martin Luther of this transitional period, translating “postmodernism”, a term which could easily have remained a topic for elitist intellectuals, into the vernacular for those who have no interest in becoming the Amish of the next generation (stuck on the Fundi compound) yet refuse to subscribe to the notion that philosophical knowledge is the only way into “true” understanding. You seemingly champion the fight against “indulgences”, handed out by the Fundies packaged as a “grace only”, gluttonous ideology, which negates all obligation to fear God or even truly love Him and others as Christ did and commanded us to.
I am currently teaching x in X and I have been writing sporadic articles for X’s paper about life after Bible College and the church. The first article was entitled “The Grass on the Other Side is Astroturf!” My most recent article spoke to the issue of silence. The idea that we as a people cannot seem to sit in the presence of God without a synthesizer vamping emotionally evocative, ambiance enhancing, musically vapid, bubble gum.[3] (I have attached the article, if you want to read it and comment that would be great…no pressure… I’m breezy!)
There are a thousand things that I would love to go into, from the poeticism of Anglicanism as compared to “Yes Lord, Yes Lord, Yes! Yes! Yes…!” (You get the picture) to the stark contrast between the Gothic Architecture of our European lineage and the functional warehouses that we call home today. I also, like everyone else wonder about your stance in the Evolution debate, the idea of death before the fall, all of the grey area etc. Also, I have at certain points gotten the impression that you don’t believe that the Biblical texts themselves should be seen as such a cornerstone of unquestionable truth, whether literal or not. I get that the point is to make others decide and reevaluate what they believe by putting forward an open ended theory, but it seems like a gamble.
My fear is that these emails get stockpiled and read only by the “fan club”, never actually reaching your desktop. Either way, it’s always worth trying. Hope to hear from you at some point.[4]
[1] (All though you seem like the kind of guy that would frown on said formal nomenclature, it’s better to be safe than sorry, so there it is.)
[2] If you are in fact a narcissist from this role, you don’t have to take the time to respond, just send me an autographed head-shot that says “God bless you”; a big glossy black and white.
[3] I am especially snarky about this because I am a singer/songwriter with a BaMu in Classical voice and I hate the idea that we practice for months to perform for a royal, but think it appropriate to “wing it” for the King of Kings.
A: Thanks for your note. You sound like a fun and interesting person. I do read these emails, but sometimes I get very far behind. For example, over the last few months I have piled up 180 pages, single spaced, 12 point font, of incoming questions. So, I hope you won’t interpret my inability to keep up as narcissism. (Although I suppose my fear of being thought narcissistic could be a sign of narcissism …)
You asked a number of questions … let me just address the one about death and the fall. First, I always like to point out that the term “the fall” is found nowhere in the Bible. Yes, I believe in the reality and horror and pervasiveness of sin, but I fear that we have imported a lot of extra and unhelpful baggage with the term. To put it too bluntly, I fear that we have turned Eden into a Platonic state, and the fall then represents a fall into an Aristotelian story, from which we hope to be saved and delivered to heaven where nothing will ever happen again, world without end.
So, yes, I see death as an essential part of life on earth, and not explicitly a consequence of sin. Sin brings the fear of death, I believe, and of course sin increases the frequency of untimely death through murder, greed, lust, etc. As a good Bible college grad, I know you’re thinking of a number of Bible verses (as you should), and if we had time, we could go through them one by one. (By the way, yes, I believe the Bible! My problem isn’t with the Bible, but with how we too often interpret the Bible.) But instead, let me recommend my book The Story We Find Ourselves In, as it touches on some of these subjects. I hope we’ll get to meet sometime and talk in person.
Subject: gratitude
Dear Brian:
I want to thank you for pushing the envelope and also for listening to the Spirit. My name is X. I had the privilege of hearing you speak in X last month. I am a pastor of a large X church in suburban X. I was the guy who mentioned to you during the lunch break that Phyliss Tickle steered me toward your work by recommending “A Generous Orthodoxy,” while I was on my sabbatical. I loved that book and have since completed your first two books of the trilogy. Thank you for them as well! I am comforted and yet frightened by my similarities to “Dan.” I have also been blessed to discover Donald Miller’s two books; “Blue Like Jazz” and “Searching for God Knows What.” An exciting future is unfolding for the Church! Thank you for your courage.
In the midst of serving a large growing church in suburban America and having two adult children of my own our family has learned and experienced an incredible gift. My son struggled with his sexual identity and shared that struggle with us when he was a senior in high school. As a “liberal” theologian, I myself was struggling. I was struggling to figure out the incredible challenge of connecting the scriptures and homosexuality. In the midst of our struggle as a family we had the privilege of meeting Richard. Richard is a family therapist from your part of the country. His home/ office is in Bowie, Maryland. He leads the International Healing Foundation and has a website at www.comingoutstraight.com I want to tell you from personal experience that Richard is the real deal. He is a true twenty first century prophet not unlike yourself. His experience and method of love is the only thing that justifies the scriptures to the healing power of Jesus Christ. The truth is that science will never find a “gay gene.” The modern world would have us believe otherwise and at our peril. Same Sex Attraction is a dynamic and a result of an entire constellation of factors. It is not genetic or biological. It is relational and more painful than one can imagine. Nor is Same Sex Attraction to be dealt with by judgment or shallow theology. I can tell you from personal experience as a father and from 18 years of pastoral care and counseling that Richard Cohen is the best kept secret in our world today. Same Sex Attraction can be changed if people want to change. And if people ( the Church! ) have the guts and integrity to face up to their own shortcomings and failures and be accountable. If the church allows science to fool us into believing the myth of homosexuality being acquired at birth or genetic then thousands and even millions of people will never have the opportunity to fully heal and teach the Church how to truly be the Church. Maybe I am making a false assumption but for anyone to conclude that homosexuality is like racism or feminism or any social issue is to entirely miss the wondrous truth. Just as Neo teaches Dan about the compatibility of evolution and creation Richard has taught our family the compatibility of a Loving God who heals the brokenness of the human condition that can occur in this life. I ask that you withhold in confidence my name for the sake of my precious son and his miraculous journey to wholeness which is still unfolding.
In humble appreciation to God for your writing and partnership in Christ,
A: Thanks for your story. Your enthusiasm is very evident! I also receive emails from parents who have almost the mirror-image experience of yours. For example, my friend Peggy Campolo has 500 letters from Evangelical parents whose children were not healed from SSA and in their agony and pain committed suicide. They wrote letters to Peggy feeling as thankful to her for speaking out on the need to accept gay people in their gayness as you are to Richard Cohen for speaking out on the possibility of gay people changing. This truly is a heartbreaking issue. I wish it were always as simple it has been for you and your family. I’m glad for people for whom resolution comes as decisively as your son’s is coming. You’re right – you’re making an assumption about homosexuality having no relation to genetics, etc. You may be right. You may be right in some cases but not others. In the meantime, thanks be to God for people who experience grace in all its forms.